| 02:25:41 | VoteForVicky: | Hi all |
| 02:25:57 | VoteForVicky: | I am waiting to see if someone else comes to the "debate" |
| 02:26:56 | VoteForVicky: | remeber 14:00 utc |
| 13:07:13 | delawen[m]: | 14 utc is in one hour, right? |
| 13:07:47 | vcraciunescu: | right |
| 13:07:52 | delawen[m]: | I will try to be here, but I am busy with work stuff so I am not sure if I will be able to read and answer synchronously |
| 13:09:54 | delawen[m]: | y de pronto, de la nada, está cayendo un chaparrón |
| 13:10:14 | delawen[m]: | it is raining in Sevilla for the first time since Summer :) |
| 13:11:05 | vcraciunescu: | not sure if this is good or bad for Sevilla :) |
| 13:11:19 | delawen[m]: | good |
| 13:11:42 | vcraciunescu: | I was just kidding. of course, is good :) |
| 13:56:14 | jgarnett: | yawn - good morning all. |
| 13:56:33 | GregersP: | Good afternoon all. |
| 13:57:32 | cvvergara: | Good morning/evening/nght |
| 14:00:22 | aghisla: | hi all |
| 14:00:38 | Dirkf: | Hi Ann! |
| 14:00:52 | aghisla: | hi Dirkf! |
| 14:00:56 | jmckenna: | hi all! and a special welcome to Anne! |
| 14:01:11 | aghisla: | oh you're too nice :) |
| 14:01:11 | cvvergara: | Hi all :) |
| 14:01:26 | jmckenna: | :D |
| 14:02:00 | cvvergara: | buenos dias, connichiwa, good morning bon jour, guten tag |
| 14:02:13 | jmckenna: | i am proud to be a part of this great group of candidates! |
| 14:03:21 | Dirkf: | I think we need a moderator ... |
| 14:03:39 | jmckenna: | i also think we should limit to 1 hour. |
| 14:03:43 | Dirkf: | Who volunteers? |
| 14:03:55 | cvvergara: | has to be non candidate |
| 14:04:26 | Dirkf: | agree ... we have a FOSS4G Be preparation meeting later on... :-) |
| 14:04:36 | jmckenna: | :D great! |
| 14:04:53 | jmckenna: | passion continues at FOSS4G.BE |
| 14:05:18 | Dirkf: | Think global - act local :-) |
| 14:05:22 | delawen: | hi |
| 14:05:24 | jmckenna: | amen :) |
| 14:05:30 | delawen: | I'm half-reading this :) |
| 14:05:39 | jmckenna: | hi delawen ! |
| 14:05:50 | Dirkf: | we did not yet start ... |
| 14:05:54 | jgarnett: | that makes you the perfect moderator delawen :) |
| 14:06:05 | jmckenna: | she is a candidate |
| 14:06:09 | Dirkf: | Lokking for a non-candidate volunteer |
| 14:06:21 | jgarnett: | (spending some time looking at handle <--> names) |
| 14:06:50 | cvvergara: | while one comes forward, let us moderate our selfs, one hour. |
| 14:07:10 | jgarnett: | perhaps start with introductions? |
| 14:07:11 | | * nhv will be in an out and will SHOUT if moderation appears needed |
| 14:07:29 | jgarnett: | nhv: is benevolent shouter got it |
| 14:07:38 | | * GregersP will be nhv's substitute |
| 14:07:52 | jmckenna: | +1 for nhv and GregersP |
| 14:07:54 | | * aghisla queues after GregersP |
| 14:08:03 | jmckenna: | oh and aghisla ha. great |
| 14:08:13 | jgarnett: | think we just needed to describe the role as shouting to attract a volunteer |
| 14:08:30 | jgarnett: | may we start with introductions nhv ? |
| 14:09:05 | jgarnett: | (and it may be useful to keep https://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Election_2017_Candidate_Manifestos handy) |
| 14:09:06 | sigq: | Title: Election 2017 Candidate Manifestos - OSGeo (at wiki.osgeo.org) |
| 14:09:40 | nhv: | norman vine original charter member initial SAC chair wasoriginal incubator |
| 14:10:05 | delawen: | Hi, I'm María and I'm addicted to FLOSS. That's how presentations work? |
| 14:10:32 | nhv: | have contributed to gdal mapseerver ossim postgis |
| 14:11:16 | jgarnett: | Hi I am jody, I work in open source for some time tending to focus on supporting projects and new teams as they adopt open source. |
| 14:11:44 | cvvergara: | I am Vicky (cv = Celia Virginia), charter member for 2 years, projects: pgRouting, OSGeoLive |
| 14:12:02 | Dirkf: | I am Dirk and enjoy to be a member of this community. I contributed to geomajas, and let people contribute to several other projects. |
| 14:12:17 | jmckenna: | hi all, I'm jeff, I have tried to focus on helping the OSGeo community and spread the passion for FOSS4G all over the world, for a very long time. I am very happy to be a part of this community |
| 14:12:54 | delawen: | ok then... I am María, worked with osgeo software for almost a decade now but started contributing just about six years ago. Right now working with GeoNetwork and metadata. WIT activist and FLOSS evangelizer |
| 14:14:01 | jgarnett: | pleased to meet everyone on IRC, it is a pleasure working with you, and thanks to all of the candidates for volunteering to serve OSGeo |
| 14:14:46 | GregersP: | So we miss introductions from: Venka, Sanghee, Helena, Astrid and Vicky ? (any of you around) |
| 14:14:57 | cvvergara: | I am Vicky |
| 14:15:02 | jmckenna: | I count 5 candidates here now. great |
| 14:15:26 | | * GregersP is embarrased, ok |
| 14:16:19 | delawen: | So it is a debate where only the candidates are active? do we have topics or something? |
| 14:16:54 | cvvergara: | I am probably the newest person on this nomeenees |
| 14:17:15 | cvvergara: | aka only charter member for 2 years (an member 2 years 1 week) |
| 14:17:27 | GregersP: | nhv - should we not proceed to a short overview, "visions of the candidates" ? |
| 14:17:38 | nhv: | +1 |
| 14:17:49 | jgarnett: | cvvergara: called this debate yesterday, I am not sure a topic was set, I believe she wanted to have a chance for candidates to review their manifesto and answer questions? |
| 14:18:05 | jgarnett: | cvvergara: can you confirm, as an organizer we would like to follow your vision |
| 14:18:30 | delawen: | @cvvergara only two years? I think I met you longer than that :| |
| 14:18:34 | delawen: | cvvergara only two years? I think I met you longer than that :| |
| 14:18:40 | cvvergara: | Leaving that topics to the moderator, as he is representing the rest of the community |
| 14:19:08 | GregersP: | If each of you could please describe, in as short a manner as possible, your core vision and would be focus for OSGEO in the coming term. |
| 14:19:24 | cvvergara: | We met on Korea, before the charter members election, I became oncharter member that year |
| 14:19:30 | GregersP: | I am thinking one- or two-liners. To get us started. |
| 14:20:46 | cvvergara: | OSGeo is to serve the world (flora, fauna, people, etc) and PSC = propose suggest and comment |
| 14:21:02 | delawen: | Core vision: I want to make sure we don't forget our roots on FLOSS. If we deviate too much from that, we will be lost and OSGeo will have no reason to exist. |
| 14:21:36 | delawen: | Also, I would like a more diverse (inclusive? not inclusive, you can be inclusive but without succeed) community. That's also a good start to get a better community which gets better results |
| 14:21:55 | delawen: | native english speakers, we need a glosary for diversity :) |
| 14:22:21 | jmckenna: | [vision] My vision is to help grow the OSGeo community, to try to bring FOSS4G to all areas of the world, to make OSGeo feel like a family, where we all share and learn and have a lot of fun doing it. My focus is to keep the fun there and help other OSGeo volunteers grow and give them the spotlight. |
| 14:22:44 | Dirkf: | From a community of open source communities, OSGeo is now transforming into a professional organisation of volunteers that takes responsibility in society trough partnership agreements with like minded organisations. As an organisation of individuals together we can act and play our role in the Civil Society to work on a more collaborative world. |
| 14:24:32 | Dirkf: | And I agree with Jeff that keeping the fun is a very important driver to motivate ourselve to reach these goals! |
| 14:25:11 | GregersP: | jgarnett ? |
| 14:25:16 | jgarnett: | jody here: I would like to continue to build up our organization, helping more members be empowered, have fun contirbuting and be recognized for their work. I really like seeing the committees working hard, the projects enjoying success, and am excited by the enthusiasm for local chapters and events that has been shown during this election period. |
| 14:26:45 | GregersP: | Ok, that was the visions. People please see the manifestos at https://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Election_2017_Candidate_Manifestos for elaborated versions. |
| 14:26:46 | sigq: | Title: Election 2017 Candidate Manifestos - OSGeo (at wiki.osgeo.org) |
| 14:27:56 | GregersP: | Now, cvvergara, could you elaborate a bit on your floral/biological analogies. Am I the Flora or the Fauna? |
| 14:28:27 | cvvergara: | Sure ... |
| 14:30:25 | cvvergara: | our organization has the back end and front end software that can help keep track of nature. |
| 14:30:37 | Guest70061: | poetic license is the spice of life |
| 14:31:01 | cvvergara: | Students can make the open software based on what we have, to keep our world green |
| 14:31:33 | cvvergara: | of course this is because there is a purpose, I would like my great great grandchildren to know nature. |
| 14:32:33 | cvvergara: | So, promoting the use of our FOSS Geo software to create more FLOSS Geo software for greater purposes. |
| 14:33:44 | cvvergara: | If you Flora nad fauna are not here in 100 years, my great greate grandchildren wont be able to meet you |
| 14:34:20 | GregersP: | thanks cvvergara. Now delawen how come the "Libre" in FLOSS and unclusion (in lack of better words) is so important to you? |
| 14:34:31 | GregersP: | inclusion... |
| 14:34:53 | jmckenna: | GregersP: can i expand quickly on vicky's vision? |
| 14:35:02 | GregersP: | sure |
| 14:35:23 | jmckenna: | vicky's vision of "OSGeo is to serve the world " absolutely agrees with...sorry to reference a serious subject, but the United States' Internal Revenue Service, approved the OSGeo foundation non-profit status as a "Social Welfare Organization" - it's important that we remember this, as outsiders view our organization as this. |
| 14:35:35 | delawen: | Well, I am starting to use Libre because the word "Free" has a lot of problems in English :) But the idea is the same as always "free as in freedom". Not just open, not just "you can touch, or see, or use" but the four liberties of the software, all at the same time. |
| 14:36:15 | GregersP: | thanks jmckenna. |
| 14:36:40 | delawen: | I like a lot the flora and fauna metafore too, because we are an ecosystem. And if we break it, we may disappear. But as it is Vicky's idea, I don't want to steal it :) |
| 14:36:52 | delawen: | not yet, at least |
| 14:37:00 | GregersP: | And inclusion? |
| 14:38:45 | Dirkf: | delawen: it is not about stealing, it should contributing to the idea :-) |
| 14:39:43 | GregersP: | Whilst delawen prepares. A joint question to jgarnett and jmckenna - jgarnett first please - You both focus on growth and fun. How do you see the growing of OSGEO done? And isn't it often in direct contrast to fun? |
| 14:40:20 | delawen: | As female I have always been a bit an outsider from the tech world. Not that I thought of myself as an outsider, but tech males around me didn't expect me to like that. And I have seen many female friends moving away from tech because they didn't feel they were included. (Also moving to foreign countries I discovered there is some racism too and I was included there!). It is a fact that the majority of people in OSGeo (as in almost al |
| 14:40:26 | delawen: | are white males. That shouldn't be like that. |
| 14:40:44 | | * cvvergara steal it if you need to move forward, I just proposed my vision, but comments and suggestions are allways welcome |
| 14:41:17 | delawen: | Having a diverse community is also a good sign of health, as different point of views and different experiences bring better communities and results. |
| 14:42:23 | delawen: | If I can use the flora and fauna metafore, if you don't have a balanced number of different types of flora and fauna, you have a weak environment. |
| 14:42:26 | delawen: | :) |
| 14:43:03 | GregersP: | Thanks, delawen, now jgarnett growth and fun? |
| 14:43:06 | jgarnett: | Fun does depend on the contributor! Many of the activities in our organization can be a great deal of fun. We have good people here, combined with making a positive change in the world, makes for more fun :) I do not see a conflict between growing our organization (by which I mean both growing in capacity, not just growing in numbers) and fun ... |
| 14:43:45 | Dirkf: | cvvergara: I think your "idea" is a nice mission for a community as OSGeo. You should continue to empower it, and try to convince all members to support it. |
| 14:44:23 | GregersP: | and jmckenna ? |
| 14:44:32 | jmckenna: | GregersP: thanks |
| 14:44:45 | | * FloraFauna ok |
| 14:45:03 | Dirkf: | jgarnett: I respectfully disagree, I think growth and fun are contradictory, and we should take care to avoid it as much as possible. |
| 14:45:26 | delawen: | avoid growing or fun? |
| 14:45:35 | FloraFauna: | I will disagree with Dirkf |
| 14:45:39 | jgarnett: | which one? growth (cannot stop the open source signle) or fun (I could be grumpy but I am not good at it) |
| 14:45:44 | Dirkf: | jgarnett: working via local chapters could be a good strategy |
| 14:45:47 | delawen: | Remember that many of us contribute also on our free time. If fun is not on the ecuation... many volunteers will not volunteer :) |
| 14:46:31 | Dirkf: | delawen: I agree fun remains very important and prior to growth ... |
| 14:46:31 | robe2: | Hi FloraFauna :) |
| 14:46:39 | FloraFauna: | I have fun doing what I do, otherwise maybe I would be doing something else. |
| 14:46:42 | jgarnett: | I do understand what you mean Dirkf, care does need to be taken support everyone, do not want to see long standing members discouraged, or new members intimitdated or feeling excluded. |
| 14:47:02 | jgarnett: | So growth does need to be considered so we do it well, local chapters are one solution. |
| 14:47:19 | FloraFauna: | Also, some people know that I am in my second opportunity in life. |
| 14:47:38 | Dirkf: | FloraFauna:? |
| 14:47:42 | delawen: | second oportunity? |
| 14:47:59 | FloraFauna: | yeah, I survived the first one |
| 14:48:05 | jmckenna: | [fun and growth] I think we all work very hard in life, and when it comes to volunteering for OSGeo people are drawn to it because we are fun, we laugh, we share, we are approachable, and as we grow we must try to remember to keep that focus on fun. I do realize that some tasks in the community may not be fun, and the Board members are often tasked with non-fun topics, and this is why we... |
| 14:48:07 | jmckenna: | ...will be possibly elected, by the Charter members, to discuss as a group those tricky subjects. But OSGeo is fun! It is why I am still here and giving my time :) |
| 14:48:39 | | * FloraFauna (I am Vicky) |
| 14:49:02 | GregersP: | Thanks, jmckenna |
| 14:49:23 | GregersP: | dirkf You seem to have a focus on the business and professional side. What about the volunteers? Do we not get run over, by bowtie wearing ;-) people from businesses with no interest in anything but money? |
| 14:49:29 | FloraFauna: | nd my nick shows, that I took seriously your comment of empowering the idea, and that I have fun. |
| 14:50:20 | hobu: | As board member candidate, what do you see as OSGeo's sustainable revenue model? Does OSGeo need revenue? Should it continue to rely on volunteer conference organizing as its primary revenue generation vehicle? |
| 14:50:38 | jj0hns0n: | I have a question. I want to know what the perspective board members are going to do to address the issues of governance and the holy wars over open vs free such that we staunch the flow of older important members of the community who are turned off by all the bickering and feel that contributing to OSGeo is no longer worth their time. |
| 14:50:45 | jgarnett: | (perhaps a bit harsh GregersP, we have seen some of the engergy Dirkf pours into our organization and his talent for building relationships) |
| 14:50:47 | robe2: | I see Dirkf's point it's not all fun and games. We must not lose site of the fact that folks do put in a bit of sweat, to keep the fun going |
| 14:50:58 | jgarnett: | robe2: +1 |
| 14:50:59 | robe2: | and we should be appreciative of those efforts |
| 14:51:15 | jj0hns0n: | s/perspective/prospective/g (its early here) |
| 14:51:31 | jgarnett: | that was quite the question jj0hns0n, may we have a moment? |
| 14:51:48 | GregersP: | It is in no way meant harsh - simply a matter of me an dirkf agreeing on most things - hence I'm really playing the devils advocate here :-) |
| 14:52:17 | Dirkf: | The nice thinkg about OSGeo is just people volunteering and doing things they like to do. It is to the businesses to use that energy and power to do something usefull with it. Business is not only about making money, it is about working towards a happy life, for yourself, in the first place, but if you want that you have to make others happy to succeed. |
| 14:53:11 | Dirkf: | (sorry, maybe a bit to fast and sentences not in real good english. hope you get the message) |
| 14:53:45 | GregersP: | Thanks Dirkf. Let's move to the questions from hobu an jj0hns0n |
| 14:54:04 | jgarnett: | I woudl like to recognize issues like open source vs free and open source exist in our field and thus in our organization. These can be desisive because "both sides are right". I would like to continue to remind particpants that our strength lies in working together, bridging these gaps. With have a vision as an organization, empower everyone with open source geospatial, we can better relize this vision working together and respecting |
| 14:54:04 | jgarnett: | along the way. |
| 14:54:11 | | * FloraFauna had to google: bicker definition |
| 14:54:51 | delawen: | I think the open/free discussion is not a holy war at all |
| 14:54:59 | delawen: | It defines our roots |
| 14:55:16 | jj0hns0n: | Im not afraid of the discussion, but am in the camp of people turned off by the bickering all the time. |
| 14:55:36 | delawen: | If we allow openwashing, we will end up working for closed software we cannot reuse. Closed software sold as open |
| 14:56:03 | jgarnett: | delawen: I came very close to quiting at my 2nd foss4g event when a "GPL" supporter came and yelled at me for 30 mins in a Java BOF about working with the LGPL license (never asking if it was my choice, since I was a contractor doing the license the customer asked). |
| 14:56:28 | delawen: | Jgarnett: that's nonsense. that GPL supporter was mad |
| 14:56:46 | FloraFauna: | delawen: right, the problem is when people don't feel with the enough confidence to speak open, and discussions go "close" |
| 14:56:48 | aghisla: | yes I think that *how* we bring our values forward makes a huge difference |
| 14:56:48 | jgarnett: | (and a bunch of open source leads saw i was upset and talked to the geotools community about it) |
| 14:56:53 | jj0hns0n: | delawen I dont know about you, but I dont think any of us will end up "working for closed software". I do think alot of people just walk away at these repeated discussions that dont really add anything meaningful. |
| 14:57:04 | jmckenna: | to be honest I have not seen the bickering recently, only positive signs lately from the community. I think we are all turning a corner as OSGeo, and really moving into an interesting time, working with so many worldwide foundations and initiatives |
| 14:57:09 | delawen: | I mean, there are a lot of shades in open. As long as we keep on the free side and not on the "I can say open with my particular definition of open", we will be fine |
| 14:57:43 | jj0hns0n: | jmckenne, I think the threads that span more than 20 emails are exactly the kind of bickering that turn people off and cause them to walk away and go take their talent and energy somewhere else |
| 14:58:05 | jmckenna: | I think it is very important to stay positive, and keep trying new initiatives and meetings with groups all around |
| 14:58:07 | delawen: | jj0ns0n when I started the free discussion in FOSS4G Korea, there were a lot of people who didn't even know the difference between open and free. A reminder every now and then and some discussion when we deviate too much is needed |
| 14:58:42 | jmckenna: | jj0hns0n: you are referring to me answering all of cameron's questions? I had to do that only as a candidate |
| 14:58:45 | aghisla: | delawen: +1 |
| 14:58:48 | jj0hns0n: | delawen, do you think its fair to assert that some people dont share your definitions here and that the constant harping on them to get in line with these other definitions is off-putting |
| 14:58:55 | jgarnett: | delawen: You are right on the open washing, we had a similar discussion on "benevolent dictatorship", where we had to draw a line as an orgaization about what we believe and stand for. I look forward to helping out as we better define this line for osgeo projects. |
| 14:59:02 | jmckenna: | please, if you have an issue with his questions definitely let him know directly |
| 14:59:17 | jj0hns0n: | jmckenna no, I dont think any of those got to more than 20 emails (thankfully!) |
| 14:59:37 | jmckenna: | i am not understanding |
| 14:59:44 | delawen: | Well, the problem with the definitions is why I went back to use Libre and Free instead of Open. No one is discussing those definitions (yet) |
| 14:59:46 | jgarnett: | jmckenna: lol, yes lots of emails. |
| 14:59:55 | jmckenna: | indeed jody :) |
| 15:00:12 | jmckenna: | hard to answer all questions, but we sure all tried |
| 15:00:34 | jmckenna: | jj0hns0n: it would be great to get your input on the changes needed for the election process, as the dust settles |
| 15:00:40 | jmckenna: | in the next month |
| 15:01:00 | Dirkf: | hobu: I don't think we should have a revenue model for OSGeo. We should consider a revenu model for sustainable open systems. Trough FOSS4G events, OSGeo can realise enough money to spend to the things they need to help promoting their vision. Just my 2c... |
| 15:01:02 | jgarnett: | jmckenna: cameron said a lot, while I had some issues I could not see how offering clarifications could help. It is hard to know when not to send an email. |
| 15:01:05 | jj0hns0n: | delawen, I think its important to point out that some people simply dont subscribe to these definitions or the stark contrast some people draw between them and in alot of cases the constant arguing about them drives people away |
| 15:01:20 | nhv: | hobu left |
| 15:01:39 | jmckenna: | jgarnett: indeed, i fully agree. and jj0hns0n is here showing how responding to all questions upset people |
| 15:01:44 | GregersP: | nhv - true, though still an important question :-) |
| 15:01:52 | nhv: | :-) |
| 15:01:59 | Guest70061: | asking questions should never be an issue |
| 15:02:00 | jmckenna: | so, we can make changes all together for the next election process :) to prevent that happening again |
| 15:02:30 | delawen: | I understand some people are not interested at all in the subject.I prefer to work on other topics better, but I am afraid that if we are not strong on this, we will deviate too much. I have seen it in other open software associations |
| 15:02:35 | jj0hns0n: | jmckenna, Im not referring to the election process at all. I can go find the few recent threads that Im referring to if we need. But the basic point I make is that the threads that are longest lived and most contentious go back to this kind of religious test of what constitutes open/free, and I know alot of people (myself included) just roll their eyes and go back to working on software. |
| 15:02:51 | delawen: | When closed source companies try to push their motivations into those associations and then they destroy them in the process |
| 15:03:07 | jmckenna: | jj0hns0n: great point. i agree with you |
| 15:03:13 | Guest70061: | complete answers seem a fair response, given the open nature of community |
| 15:03:14 | jgarnett: | Dirkf: I am uncomfortable treating foss4g as a revenue model, I have seen the strain that places on the conference committee, and how it steeers the bids we receive to be focus (at least in part) on returning profit back to OSGeo. It is hard to see members unable to afford to go to foss4g, when the events raise tens of thousands of dollars for the organization ... even if that is due to last moment sponsorship. |
| 15:04:10 | jgarnett: | Dirkf: I do acknowledge the wisdom of what you say, thinking of sustainable open systems |
| 15:04:26 | delawen: | I see the revenue in FOSS4G partly as "we want to be on the safe side and not have debts" and also on the "we are going to invest this on the community". Which is not that bad |
| 15:04:29 | robe2: | jgarnett agree always breaks my heart when osgeo developers have to scrounge to go to foss4g events |
| 15:05:04 | Guest70061: | good luck in welcoming a world to indulge collective problem solving, and as FloraFauna says, challenging our children to guide us |
| 15:05:19 | Dirkf: | I think this passion (in this thread and in the discuss list last week) is great to observe and we should embrace it! |
| 15:05:35 | robe2: | Who's Guest70061? |
| 15:05:57 | delawen: | a guest star |
| 15:06:00 | jj0hns0n: | Dirkf +1 in general, except that very often the discussions that people are most passionate about simply turn alot of people off (myself included) |
| 15:06:37 | Dirkf: | jgarnett: I agree it is a difficult balance, but (like also mentioned inthe threads) some FOSS4G conferences are totally for free! |
| 15:06:40 | robe2: | As much as people hate confrontations, I think it's very healthy to have them. I'd hate to think everyone is agreeing cause they are afraid of being outed |
| 15:06:52 | jgarnett: | delawen: I love the use of the word Libre; we do have both "open" and "free and open" source solutions in our organization. It is quite a challenge to explain both of them to newcomers, while recognizing (and celebrating) the difference in our organization. |
| 15:07:05 | | * GregersP has to leave. Thanks to the candidates - you are all awesome! |
| 15:07:10 | jmckenna: | [revenue question from hobu] I think we have tried proposing different revenue streams in the past, but the current model of most of our revenue from the annual FOSS4G has been meeting our foundation's demands. |
| 15:07:11 | delawen: | bye :) |
| 15:07:18 | jgarnett: | I wonder if we need to find a shouter/moderator to get us on topic, or wrap things up as we have reached an hour. |
| 15:07:29 | delawen: | one last thing? |
| 15:07:30 | jj0hns0n: | robe2 also +1 in general, except we have to face the fact that alot of people just walk away (or unsubscribe or dont participate) because these kinds of conversations devolve into bickering |
| 15:07:41 | jmckenna: | however that doesn't mean that that always agrees with the vision of FOSS4G |
| 15:07:45 | | * FloraFauna GregersP bye |
| 15:07:47 | delawen: | Maybe instead of deciding between the candidates what to do with FOSS4G... maybe we should vote it? |
| 15:07:54 | delawen: | wiith all the members |
| 15:08:01 | jmckenna: | so I can see that as a challenge, meeting the vision of OSGeo, and meeting the vision of FOSS4G |
| 15:08:04 | Dirkf: | jj0hns0n: I understand, that is why we need to care as members for our peer members, listen respectfully to their opinin, and try to give signals that you respect each other even if you don't agree. Not easy, but we should work on this. |
| 15:08:12 | delawen: | have an open discussion somewhere, get a list of options and vote |
| 15:08:22 | jmckenna: | GregersP: thank you for moderating. very kind of you |
| 15:08:42 | jj0hns0n: | 100%, this is true in life in general. This past year in the US has really taught me the importance of this :) |
| 15:08:49 | jj0hns0n: | ^ Dirkf |
| 15:09:10 | FloraFauna: | I mentioned on my Manifesto: |
| 15:09:12 | FloraFauna: | Why we only hear (and see) those, who raise their voice and shout out loud. But we miss to reach the silent majority? |
| 15:09:17 | jgarnett: | delawen: I touched on this on email, I do not mind if we use our voting members to address issues, but would like to ask first. Keep in mind that organizations that do these kind of "call to the people", distruipt the people, just such an issue has been fragmenting australia recently. |
| 15:09:23 | delawen: | jj0hns0n I undestand sometimes the discussion goes to far but... still, we have fresh blood every now and then. Either we have some kind of welcoming pack and explain to them a basic glosary (which is not a bad idea) or we will have this situations every now and then |
| 15:09:36 | jgarnett: | So while it sounds easy, I would want to be very careful not to break things. |
| 15:09:42 | robe2: | It's also important to keep in mind the balance of needs. I much prefer a republic over a democracy |
| 15:09:50 | FloraFauna: | all this "bickering" are te ones that raise their voice and shout out loud. |
| 15:10:05 | delawen: | robe2 isn't a republic a democracy? |
| 15:10:12 | FloraFauna: | the silent mayority we dont her them. |
| 15:10:13 | robe2: | no |
| 15:10:14 | jgarnett: | FloraFauna: +1 |
| 15:10:16 | delawen: | I mean: democracy means voting. Republic means... voting? |
| 15:10:37 | jj0hns0n: | FloraFauna I think this is also true. I dont know that its a silent majority necessarily, but I can tell you I have talked to lots of older very key members of our community who have simply unsubscribed from discuss and dont participate in governance, specifically to avoid these kinds of issues. Not sure if they are a majority, but they are very important community members. |
| 15:10:39 | robe2: | in a republic you trust your politicians to have the needs of all in mind (even if that means siding with the minority) |
| 15:10:48 | robe2: | in a democracy I see that as each vote is equal |
| 15:11:17 | robe2: | For example if I am an expert IT administrator, I collect what all people say they need |
| 15:11:19 | delawen: | wow, that's not the type of republics I studied :) but living on a democratic monarchy, maybe I missed something |
| 15:11:33 | robe2: | I balance with my knowledge doing it this way or the other and who will be burned |
| 15:11:44 | | * nhv likes to read this page every 6 months or so /me thinks it wll worded |
| 15:11:48 | jmckenna: | these elections covered new grounds for OSGeo indeed. I hope we can all learn from this experience, and work together as Charter members on the process for next year, in the coming months |
| 15:11:57 | robe2: | I try to achieve a goal that might not be perfect for the majority but doesn't burn the minority |
| 15:12:02 | nhv: | http://www.osgeo.org/content/foundation/about.html |
| 15:12:03 | sigq: | Title: About the Open Source Geospatial Foundation | OSGeo.org (at www.osgeo.org) |
| 15:12:29 | robe2: | it's like balance between meat eaters and vegetarians |
| 15:12:36 | jmckenna: | it is unfortunate to hear the words 'bickering', when we as candidates were really asked to answer all questions. but this was the reality this year |
| 15:12:53 | robe2: | throwing vegetable on a meat plate is not a big deal, but throwing meat on a vegetarian plate is well not acceptable |
| 15:12:54 | jmckenna: | so let's all think of ways to improve this for next year |
| 15:13:14 | Dirkf: | I whish all the candidates a good result with their election results and for those elected: I will support all of you! |
| 15:13:54 | jmckenna: | agreed, I think the world of all of the current candidates, such great leaders |
| 15:14:13 | jmckenna: | we are so lucky to have this crop of candidates! |
| 15:14:23 | jmckenna: | it says a lot of where we are today, as a foundation |
| 15:14:28 | delawen: | I am happily calm, whoever wins is good for OSGeo :) |
| 15:14:28 | jgarnett: | all the best everyone, and thanks for trying out an IRC debate, and for suggesting it FloraFauna |
| 15:14:36 | aghisla: | :) |
| 15:14:41 | jmckenna: | :) |
| 15:14:49 | jmckenna: | big guys from me to all |
| 15:14:52 | jmckenna: | hugs |
| 15:14:54 | FloraFauna: | your welcome |
| 15:14:55 | jmckenna: | hugs |
| 15:14:59 | jmckenna: | :D |
| 15:15:15 | jmckenna: | and a big smile to you all |
| 15:15:19 | jmckenna: | thank you all |
| 15:15:34 | jmckenna: | and happy birthday Vicky! |
| 15:15:41 | Cake54Candles: | thanks all for coming to the party :) |
| 15:16:15 | jmckenna: | you are all why I am here, thank you all |
| 15:16:35 | delawen: | thank you! |
| 15:16:35 | aghisla: | happy birthday Cake54Candles! |
| 15:16:40 | Cake54Candles: | thanks |
| 15:16:50 | delawen: | and happy birthday!!! we will celebrate next week in FOSS4G-BA? |
| 15:16:53 | delawen: | with asado :D? |
| 15:16:54 | jmckenna: | yes |
| 15:16:57 | delawen: | wiii! |
| 15:16:57 | robe2: | happy birthday Cake54Candles, you don't need that many candles on your cake |
| 15:17:06 | Cake54Candles: | indeed ... |
| 15:17:08 | Cake54Candles: | BTW |
| 15:17:09 | jmckenna: | YES! asado indeed! together in FOSS4G-BA |
| 15:17:14 | jmckenna: | :D |
| 15:17:23 | Cake54Candles: | I am taking my son as volunteer to FOSS4G Argentina |
| 15:17:35 | Cake54Candles: | he is a political science student |
| 15:17:38 | jmckenna: | great. of course! |
| 15:17:42 | jmckenna: | excellent |
| 15:17:54 | jmckenna: | that is truly what OSGeo is about |
| 15:18:05 | delawen: | :) |
| 15:18:08 | jmckenna: | :) |
| 15:18:21 | delawen: | I have to leave now. See you soon! |
| 15:18:25 | delawen: | And thanks for the debate! |
| 15:18:30 | Cake54Candles: | So, maigh be a "future politician" with a knowledge of what is FLOSS about |
| 15:19:23 | robe2: | Don't forget the FLOSS Cake54Candles he should FLOSS his teeth before he talks |
| 15:19:39 | cvvergara: | sure ;) |
| 15:20:25 | jmckenna: | nhv: can you send the IRC logs today to the Discuss list, of this meeting? |
| 15:20:38 | GregersPhone: | Good to see you haven't all left. 😁 |
| 15:20:45 | jmckenna: | :D |
| 15:21:14 | jmckenna: | still some battery power, surprisingly, after making it through elections process :D |
| 15:21:19 | jmckenna: | internal battery power! |
| 15:21:21 | jmckenna: | :D |
| 15:21:35 | nhv: | messages that long iconsider to be SPAM |
| 15:22:06 | jmckenna: | can a moderator send the IRC logs of the meeting? |
| 15:22:12 | nhv: | maybe a link to todays IRC log would work |
| 15:22:13 | cvvergara: | I am making a mial |
| 15:22:15 | jmckenna: | GregersPhone: do you mind? |
| 15:22:19 | cvvergara: | *mail with the link |
| 15:22:23 | jmckenna: | yes this is my exact question nhv |
| 15:22:26 | jmckenna: | IRC log |
| 15:22:27 | nhv: | jusrt the link |
| 15:22:28 | GregersPhone: | Not at all |
| 15:22:29 | jmckenna: | yes |
| 15:22:34 | jmckenna: | this is my question exactly |
| 15:22:39 | jmckenna: | GregersPhone: thanks! |
| 15:23:04 | GregersPhone: | I merely flipped your visions into evil devil's advocate questions... ;-) |
| 15:23:11 | jmckenna: | it was great! |
| 15:23:14 | jmckenna: | great discussions |
| 15:23:19 | jgarnett: | And please credit vicky with organizing, it was nicely done. |
| 15:23:49 | jef: | sigq still logs this too btw. http://irclogs.geoapt.com/osgeo/%23osgeo.2017-10-17.log |
| 15:23:50 | sigq: | Title: IRC Log (at irclogs.geoapt.com) |
| 15:24:00 | cvvergara: | https://view.matrix.org/room/!fJlCtKdpMHgXoEvxTO:matrix.org/?anchor=$15082535792289779ImXcE:matrix.org&offset=300 |
| 15:24:01 | sigq: | Title: Matrix Static - Public Room Timeline - OSGeo (at view.matrix.org) |
| 15:24:02 | GregersPhone: | Dirkf i don't know if you have elaborated on it whilst I was away. But the |
| 15:24:12 | cvvergara: | that link I used, is where the debate starts |
| 15:24:32 | GregersPhone: | Idea of managing growth through structured local chapters seems compelling to me. |
| 15:25:05 | GregersPhone: | Anyone knows how that fits into the current setup. And any drawbacks? |
| 15:25:08 | nhv: | GregersPhone: +1 |
| 15:25:26 | cvvergara: | Local chaptters might depend on many factors: |
| 15:25:36 | jmckenna: | it has long been discussed. i once proposed having the Board representatives from each local chapter |
| 15:25:41 | nhv: | I don't think it needs to too structured thiugh |
| 15:25:43 | cvvergara: | Local laws is the most difficult one |
| 15:25:45 | jmckenna: | but it could be key for our growth |
| 15:26:17 | jmckenna: | and Andy's voting mechanism could be applied, to get representatives from each local chapter region, on the Board |
| 15:26:28 | jmckenna: | it is very possible |
| 15:27:05 | cvvergara: | is a start of an idea |
| 15:27:17 | jmckenna: | this would need some champions to drive this, as this would require changing our bylaws. but it is absolutely possible |
| 15:28:25 | jmckenna: | and maybe force us to formalize/update our local chapter representations |
| 15:28:27 | cvvergara: | and a lot of investiation |
| 15:28:35 | | * nhv thinks that some scheme like the way the US House ofRepresenatives is a fair distribution |
| 15:28:37 | cvvergara: | *investigation |
| 15:28:38 | jmckenna: | yes a lot of champions to drive this |
| 15:28:51 | GregersPhone: | Agreed nhv. I was chairman of a large regional chapter of an even larger Danish union. Som regional chapters weren't even chapters, but to get official (financial) support, you had to be. The less formal "chapters" simply had to ask for support case by case... |
| 15:30:06 | GregersPhone: | I would be reluctant to put too much (voting) power in each chapter (since I have seen how they die, when one or two people burn out). But a more formal recognition might encourage people to get involved. |
| 15:30:25 | Dirkf: | I think structure and control is not always the best vehicle in a volunteer community driven organisation. Respect and trust are. And the willingness of people to contribute. |
| 15:30:57 | GregersPhone: | +1 Dirkf - as usual you say it much better than ai |
| 15:31:07 | Dirkf: | :-) |
| 15:31:28 | GregersPhone: | I... (noone beats artificial intelligence) |
| 15:31:55 | Dirkf: | I just wrote a message about ai in the discuss list ... |
| 15:32:11 | cvvergara: | Dirkf: Hypothesis: the more volunteers act the more willingness of people to contribute. |
| 15:32:36 | Dirkf: | agree! I think that could be verified :-) |
| 15:33:32 | cvvergara: | Well ... I've considered my self as "doer" and by doing I became nominated (I never in my wildest dreams imagined my self being nominated) |
| 15:33:44 | Dirkf: | cvvergara: and the more fun |
| 15:34:40 | Dirkf: | cvvergara: so where is the threshold that too big becomes too professional so we loose the fun part ?? |
| 15:34:41 | cvvergara: | yeah, the fus is greater ... maybe nexst year's debate party more people come :) |
| 15:34:47 | cvvergara: | *fun |
| 15:35:40 | cvvergara: | I don't think the size matters to be professional |
| 15:36:01 | cvvergara: | and I think "fun" is relative |
| 15:36:25 | cvvergara: | I have fun doing what I do, that does not mean I am laughing all the time |
| 15:37:07 | cvvergara: | but for exmple doing my Manifest I had fun ... (so I think some people understood the jokes) |
| 15:37:21 | Dirkf: | What I want to say: you can be professional and small. You have to be organised and structured and professional when growing bigger. |
| 15:37:46 | aghisla: | cvvergara: so more "rewarding" than "fun"? |
| 15:38:11 | robe2: | Dirkf but importance is not to grow too fast. I think the speed and acceleration is most important |
| 15:38:41 | cvvergara: | hmm... well, in my family I was taught to have fun, even with darkest matters |
| 15:39:01 | Dirkf: | As I personally find the best part of OSGeo: the people, I think we should care we don't loose the fun part. I only think this is difficult. |
| 15:39:07 | robe2: | aghisla yes rewarding. Some things are not that much fun from fun perspective but if you think people appreciate it, it's rewarding |
| 15:39:14 | cvvergara: | (like the we are the "die hard family" aka, we are living our second some our third chance in life) |
| 15:39:20 | robe2: | and that to some extent compensates for less fun |
| 15:39:31 | cvvergara: | and of course I feel rewarding in what I do. |
| 15:39:41 | aghisla: | robe2: exactly |
| 15:40:14 | cvvergara: | robe2 and me sometimes are working at 3am, because is when we can do things |
| 15:40:43 | Dirkf: | robe2: that rewarding aspect is what gives us the 'fun' feeling. |
| 15:40:49 | Dirkf: | ha - language ... |
| 15:41:13 | cvvergara: | feelings are relative to the persons experiences |
| 15:41:58 | cvvergara: | The gender problem, I never lived it in my house. |
| 15:42:14 | robe2: | cvvergara you are surrounded by men :) |
| 15:42:38 | cvvergara: | yeah, but ... |
| 15:43:04 | robe2: | actually I have the same problem -- I've never much noticed gender -- hey take all those postgis devs, shave off their beards and put a dress on them |
| 15:43:40 | cvvergara: | my mom, in the "macho" country where women were expected to be "secretary" or teachers at most, she became a physicist. |
| 15:43:43 | robe2: | but seriously I think people get too hung up on that. It's not just a man fault but women noticing how they are different from men and getting all hung up about it |
| 15:44:02 | GregersPhone: | cvvergara I would like be able to agree to the idea (as I hear it) that results/merits should matter most. But in my experience first impressions - for instance size - do matter (especially to outsiders). |
| 15:44:24 | cvvergara: | I saw her work, do research, the reading boos were math and phisics, so I never felt at home environment that we could do less |
| 15:44:46 | robe2: | so was my mom. My dad was the wimp fainted at first sight of blood. My mother could go into a battle zone pull a leg of a man with gangrene and he wouldn't notice it |
| 15:45:08 | GregersPhone: | So |
| 15:45:20 | cvvergara: | Yes, we need to grow |
| 15:45:40 | GregersPhone: | I really think it an important question, how do we grow and keep the fun. |
| 15:46:00 | aghisla: | I see that we can't give gender equality for granted but also that there are many allies among our members. |
| 15:47:02 | cvvergara: | Well, I starting at home ... |
| 15:47:26 | cvvergara: | I took my dad to FOSS4G Asia now he is using open source software |
| 15:47:42 | Dirkf: | I need to go to a another FOSS4G preparation meeting :-) |
| 15:47:45 | robe2: | aghisla agree I didn't want to dismiss the gender thing, but think its important to focus on qualities of people and why some get turned off |
| 15:47:55 | cvvergara: | I am talking my son, (as I mentioned before) |
| 15:48:10 | cvvergara: | my other son already does contributions |
| 15:48:15 | Dirkf: | Have a nice continuation of your day (morning/evening/afternoon) .... |
| 15:48:32 | robe2: | so to me gender might give you first impression but it should not be a deciding fact. For example guidos is way more people friendly than I am |
| 15:48:40 | robe2: | I man the man knits too :) |
| 15:49:26 | robe2: | I'm just saying that a person's gender, race etc. does not define them. It might give you a first impression, but once you know them it's irrelevant |
| 15:49:56 | robe2: | you should for example focus on encouraging people who have young kids (they have less time to devote) how can you make it worth their while |
| 15:49:58 | cvvergara: | So, continuing with GregersPhone, if your family supports you and understand what you do, the fun you share it with the closed ones |
| 15:50:01 | cvvergara: | the exitements |
| 15:50:11 | cvvergara: | the frustrations |
| 15:50:30 | cvvergara: | etc ... |
| 15:51:45 | cvvergara: | once you can do that, then you can grow in your own community (So I think) |
| 15:53:26 | cvvergara: | I had the chance to talk 2 months ago with a person of the "Secretaría de la Función Publica" about open source. |
| 15:53:57 | GregersPhone: | I was especially thinking of our discussions around foss4g(s). :-) |
| 15:54:24 | cvvergara: | wow, its not easy to remove the roots of "using closed software" and not seeing the benefits of using open software. (not, I am talking about Usint, let alone making it) |
| 15:55:01 | GregersPhone: | But first impressions matter in many places (also were it shouldn't) |
| 15:56:00 | robe2: | GregersPhone yes we need to understand that even in a non-profit like ours marketing is important |
| 15:56:50 | GregersPhone: | And "communications" - a |
| 15:57:02 | cvvergara: | all things are tied together |
| 15:57:16 | GregersPhone: | Place were we actually have our strength - in my opinion. |
| 15:58:38 | cvvergara: | GregersPhone: That place is our heart |
| 15:58:58 | cvvergara: | And we all have different abilities |
| 15:59:14 | robe2: | GregersPhone yes first thing to me have a space where people aren't afraid to voice their opinions about things regardless how unpopular |
| 15:59:36 | cvvergara: | Lets use our abilities to make things happen. |
| 16:00:00 | robe2: | Yes we all have different experiences different pain points |
| 16:00:37 | cvvergara: | Lets leave our pain points to others where that is their ability ;) |
| 16:01:53 | cvvergara: | About communications ... |
| 16:02:40 | cvvergara: | Since I registered to Discuss, I read everything, and see the discussions, and participate by only reading |
| 16:03:49 | cvvergara: | read 2(or more) points of view over the same topic |
| 16:04:42 | cvvergara: | Points of view arise from the fact that we are different |
| 16:04:53 | cvvergara: | different history, location, culture, etc |
| 16:05:28 | cvvergara: | I was part of silent mayority |
| 16:05:50 | cvvergara: | basically learning |
| 16:07:36 | cvvergara: | Wel, have to go, I have to make a release. |
| 16:08:29 | aghisla: | bye, and thanks again for the idea of this debate cvvergara! |
| 16:08:40 | cvvergara: | bye aghisla |
| 16:08:42 | aghisla: | and one hour is definitely too short :) |
| 16:08:49 | aghisla: | imagine if all candidates were ther |
| 16:08:50 | aghisla: | there |
| 16:09:00 | cvvergara: | yeah, but was a last minute idea |
| 16:09:22 | aghisla: | right |
| 16:09:23 | cvvergara: | I hope it becomes a standard to have a debate |
| 16:09:40 | aghisla: | I wonder how it was not, maybe because mails felt good enough? |
| 16:09:57 | cvvergara: | at 2 different UTC times so that not only the nomenees but also the community can join |
| 16:10:08 | aghisla: | yes right |
| 16:10:17 | aghisla: | and the candidates themselves who live around the world |
| 16:11:23 | cvvergara: | So I will go back to my compaign mode, now that the debate is over ;) |
| 16:11:55 | VoteForVicky: | I am around working, but if you have a question, dont hesitate to ask |
| 16:29:58 | jgarnett: | geoserver meeting done, what did I miss? |
| 16:31:21 | jgarnett: | I still like the idea of putting a question to the candidates and tasking them to work out an agrreemnt, exactly what we ask of them as a board :) |
| 16:31:47 | jgarnett: | but yes good idea vicky, glad it worked out. |
| 16:33:54 | VoteForVicky: | tx jgarnett |